rmhop81
Apr 22, 10:11 AM
No no, I do get it. If anything its a very fine line or grey area. Not everyone has unlimited data and not everyone can get unlimited data. You also ignored my statement about AT&T actively going after the heavy data users even on unlimited plans. Also, your issue is that your wanting people to "change" well before its really time do do so. I'm always up for the latest and greatest. Please, don't be wrong on that. I spend a lot of money on tech. However, the key crutch here is cellular data and bandwidth charges. Cellular data is not where it needs to be in terms of stability and coverage. Also, not all WiFi hotspots are all that great. I've seen instances and lot of them where cellular data was faster then the hotspot. Then again, there is bandwidth usage. Until the carriers can come up with a non-gouging pricing model...especially on not so reliable connectivity, its not time to quickly do away with local storage. or physical media.
i didn't ignore anything. i stream pandora all the time when i'm on the go and while i'm at the house. my work has wifi so i just connect to that and my house wifi while i'm there. I have a buddy here at work that streams netflix and tons of other stuff but refuses to connect to wifi. he uses close to 10gb of data monthly and has still not received any message from AT&T.
My point is there are a lot of people that just don't connect to wifi when they are around it free, they just rely on their cell service instead. The reason i connect is bc when i'm looking online it's quicker internet wise then the 3g.
I'm not wanting anyone to change. but you're arguing that this service isn't great...when in reality it's just not great for you.
I like to live minimally....so having a dvd collection or cd collection of physical media does not interest me. Apparently, others think the same way or the cloud service would not exist. The service is not for you. Go back to ripping cds to your local storage device and making play list after play list and sync all ur music each time u want a variety.
Many people are the same way with books. My MIL has like 1,500 books in her house and just sees no value in a kindle and all that it provides.
I get it, people enjoy their "stuff".
i didn't ignore anything. i stream pandora all the time when i'm on the go and while i'm at the house. my work has wifi so i just connect to that and my house wifi while i'm there. I have a buddy here at work that streams netflix and tons of other stuff but refuses to connect to wifi. he uses close to 10gb of data monthly and has still not received any message from AT&T.
My point is there are a lot of people that just don't connect to wifi when they are around it free, they just rely on their cell service instead. The reason i connect is bc when i'm looking online it's quicker internet wise then the 3g.
I'm not wanting anyone to change. but you're arguing that this service isn't great...when in reality it's just not great for you.
I like to live minimally....so having a dvd collection or cd collection of physical media does not interest me. Apparently, others think the same way or the cloud service would not exist. The service is not for you. Go back to ripping cds to your local storage device and making play list after play list and sync all ur music each time u want a variety.
Many people are the same way with books. My MIL has like 1,500 books in her house and just sees no value in a kindle and all that it provides.
I get it, people enjoy their "stuff".
AppleScruff1
Apr 4, 11:53 AM
Was It really necessary to kill him?
No
What would you do if someone was shooting at you?
No
What would you do if someone was shooting at you?
dolph0291
Mar 30, 01:11 PM
Interesting. Microsoft calls these files "Programs" and always has. Nothing called an application exists in Windows, it only has programs. Seems maybe MS is a little late to this game, and they're gonna piss all over it for everyone else.
Nomadski
Apr 13, 07:07 AM
MagnusVonMagnum -
- Sonos is not "way better quality" (AppleTV2 output is DIGITAL and so the "quality" depends entirely on the stereo you connect it to. So sorry but you have no point there.
Unless you've purchased / converted music in Apple lossless format it IS way better quality. Im making the comparison of my situation listening to FLAC vs the masses who purchase mp3s on iTunes. You could rip your music in Apple Lossless for sure, but then your hooked into iTunes, cant play on WMP or most other mp3s other than iPods. Like with a lot of stuff iTunes related, if you go that route, your stuck. Even the all inclusive Sonos S5 sounds better than the best iPod dock on the market (Bose 10 / Zeppelin whichever grabs your boat the most).
- It may not be better quality, but it IS "way more expensive". AppleTV2 costs $99 (same price as an Airport Express which is "audio only" like Sonos). Sonos OTOH costs $349 for a basic receiver which then still requires to either be connected directly to a router (wired) OR you have to pay ANOTHER $99 for a "bridge" to send a separate wireless signal off your router just for Sonos devices (waste of bandwidth and clutters the band with more wireless signals instead of just using your existing wireless router, which most people already have (how many used a wired only router and if you did you cannot use the Sonos wireless for anything else). So already you are at LEAST $450 in the hole for a single room with Sonos and you have ONLY AUDIO capability.
Sonos isnt cheap for sure, but that is why I said people who have no shortage of money at the start of my thread. Some people have massive Mac systems, those people shouldn't skimp when it comes to music, if they like music, or video for that matter.
One of the big features of Sonos which you obviously arent aware of is that Sonos DOESNT hog your bandwidth. It uses its own Mesh network which works independantly of your home wireless network, hence no bandwidth constraints, which is why you can have up to 32 Sonos units all working AT THE SAME TIME on the same or different sources whilst not affecting the bandwidth capability of your home network. Try using even 2 AppleTV2s at the same time and see how much of your bandwidth is left.
Also, if you live in a large house, or one with thick walls, or you want to listen outside, because Sonos recreates its own Mesh network each time it hits a Sonos unit strength signal on the opposite side of the house to the router is still very high, each Zone Player acts like a new Sonos signal source.
Yup its expensive but I bought my first Sonos bit of kit in 2006. Since then ive added 3 more units, 2 of which were new redesigned units released a couple of years ago. Ive also added a second controller when they moved to touchscreen 2 years ago. And you know what? It all works seamlessly with each other. Old hardware, new hardware, built up over time. New features added over time (for free) seamlessly updated into even the oldest bit of hardware with a firmware update, they even added full Touch, iPhone and iPad control options so I could use any of them to control the audio around the house. Can you integrate AppleTV2 with 1? Can you honestly say in 5 years time your money spent will still work with the rest of your AppleTV system as they upgrade and add new features? When 3 year old sounddocks wont even charge new ipods I would hazard a guess...no.
-But then I would be forgetting you need a SOURCE of music. You tout the use of an NAS, but most NAS devices aren't exactly cheap or anything. For all intensive purposes they are a just a headless computer and most run Linux. AppleTV2 is out of the box a PITA if you don't want to leave a computer on, but you can put XBMC on it which will use any NAS or networked source. You then have the same functionality as Sonos BUT you also have full video capability. You could instead get a cheap Netbook for $250 (cheaper than most NAS devices) and connect a hard drive to that and run iTunes and the full Apple interface if you'd like and still have XBMC available as well. Personally, I just use an old PPC G4 PowerMac as a server and 24/7 Internet terminal. Intel machines can also be set to Wake On Lan, so you can have your machine sleep while AppleTV is not in use. In short, NAS isn't as great as you make it sound (most are also dog slow compared to a real computer) and there are alternative options even with Apple software like a cheap Netbook as a server.
NAS or WHS arent cheap but youve just contradicted yourself.
Sonos will also play from any networked PC, MAC, External hard drive on Airport, netbook. To use a NAS you dont have to install XBMC on it, it works out of the box from any source you want. That PPC G4 would also work with Sonos, or you could play Last.FM, or Pandora, or Spotify, or Napster, or unlimited internet radio (you can even add your own internet radio addresses).
Best of all, you DONT have to use iTunes. You can if you want, but you dont have to.
Sonos also gives you multi room grouping. Group 2 or more zones together and enjoy synced music wherever you want it. Not miliseconds out syncing like Sony or Logitech but 100% synced. Dropping zones can be done at the flick of the controller.
Read a review of a new album in the newspaper? Listen to it 5 seconds later on Sonos.
So the kids can listen to their own music streamed in their rooms upstairs, my wife can be listening to the TV, or some music in the living room, and I can be in my little den listening to my music whilst enjoying near full speed wireless capability on my pc or mac, or maybe my wife likes a song shes hearing upstairs and links zones so she can hear it downstairs.
You can buy a standalone unit which sounds better than the B&W Zeppelin, or get the amped unit for attaching to any speaker system you want, or get the small unit for use (as you do) with your existing stereo system. You can add these anytime you want, building up your Sonos system over time, without the fear it will be redundant over time.
Its a high end multi room music system vs a limited single streaming unit.
-Now I come to the heart of the matter...VIDEO. You suggest a Popcorn Hour in ADDITION to the already out of this world priced Sonos system. They start at $179 and go up to $299. That brings your total minimum price for a wireless system for a single room to $629 AND you have to switch between two separate devices to listen to audio and/or watch videos. With AppleTV you have all your movies, tv shows, photos, music, music videos, YouTube and Internet Radio (plus the options of XBMC with a quick hack including non-Apple formats) and your TOTAL COST for **one** room wireless using an existing wireless router is $99. $629 versus $99...Hmmmmmm. And then there's the matter of Popcorn Hour's crappy interface versus Apple's polished one. XBMC makes Popcorn Hour look bad as well. Bugs or popcorn? :confused:
Cost seems to be the big issue with you, so I wonder if you own a mac mini as opposed to 3 macbook pros, an imac, apple tv2 etc etc as many posters here have? If so, Sonos etc wont be for you. If you do own multiple Apple systems why are you so concerned with price? If you want the best you got to pay for it.
With Apple TV you DONT have all your movies or music or internet radio. you have limited experiences with all 3. No 1080p, no DVD images (Popcorn will load your dvd image in exactly the same way your dvd player would), wont play .mp4 .m4v .mkv .wmv .avi .aac .divx, doesnt have full support for all subtitle formats, wont play FLAC or anything else outside of your iTunes library audio wise and its internet radio function is gimped.
Its sure nice to have it in one box, but *it* is very very limited. Dedicated systems will always trump jack of all trade systems.
The interface is nice on AppleTV2 for sure, my popcorn looks better though with my skin on it. The default layout looks boring ill agree.
So for the price of your ONE room audio and video, I could have SIX rooms using AppleTV2 with both video and audio and still have $29 to spare
Except you couldnt do that could you? Your wireless network would be crippled with half that many running at the same time. I can assure you I can play a 1080P movie AND have 3 other Sonos units streaming at the same time. Try that sometime with 4 AppleTVs...
With XBMC installed, it can play any format (just like Popcorn Hour).
No, no it cant. DVD isos? All subtitle formats? 1080P? Also your slightly expanded feature set (not out of the box) is achieved by essentially hacking your AppleTV 2, so good luck on the next firmware update.
Hell, I can even buy a cheap 3.5" internal hard drive and slot that into my popcorn hour if I want to store the films locally, what sized hard drive does Apple TV2 have? Oh wait.
Your not seeing the advantages with zero configuration audio system, and a play all with no hassles video system? The only mucking about in my system is if you want a nice shinier interface with Popcorn Hour. You have to convert audio, replace (essentially) the OS to XBMC, have a linux system and a Crystal card to play 1080p on an OLDER Apple TV (your not factoring in this stuff with your price or integrated system arguments are you?) and you STILL have a far more limited setup.
Reading thru your post I guarantee you your costs are higher than $99 and in about 2 years time your system will be redundant.
Im not saying the AppleTV 2 is useless for everyone, for many of the dumb masses who are locked into iTunes already its probably the best thing since sliced bread, and really its only advantage is a cheap price and movie rentals, in glorious 720P, but if I want to feed my 42" 1080p plasma with subpar 720P video I could use the xbox or PS3 sitting under the TV, which I also dont bother with. For audiophiles or moviephiles it doesn't cut it.
- Sonos is not "way better quality" (AppleTV2 output is DIGITAL and so the "quality" depends entirely on the stereo you connect it to. So sorry but you have no point there.
Unless you've purchased / converted music in Apple lossless format it IS way better quality. Im making the comparison of my situation listening to FLAC vs the masses who purchase mp3s on iTunes. You could rip your music in Apple Lossless for sure, but then your hooked into iTunes, cant play on WMP or most other mp3s other than iPods. Like with a lot of stuff iTunes related, if you go that route, your stuck. Even the all inclusive Sonos S5 sounds better than the best iPod dock on the market (Bose 10 / Zeppelin whichever grabs your boat the most).
- It may not be better quality, but it IS "way more expensive". AppleTV2 costs $99 (same price as an Airport Express which is "audio only" like Sonos). Sonos OTOH costs $349 for a basic receiver which then still requires to either be connected directly to a router (wired) OR you have to pay ANOTHER $99 for a "bridge" to send a separate wireless signal off your router just for Sonos devices (waste of bandwidth and clutters the band with more wireless signals instead of just using your existing wireless router, which most people already have (how many used a wired only router and if you did you cannot use the Sonos wireless for anything else). So already you are at LEAST $450 in the hole for a single room with Sonos and you have ONLY AUDIO capability.
Sonos isnt cheap for sure, but that is why I said people who have no shortage of money at the start of my thread. Some people have massive Mac systems, those people shouldn't skimp when it comes to music, if they like music, or video for that matter.
One of the big features of Sonos which you obviously arent aware of is that Sonos DOESNT hog your bandwidth. It uses its own Mesh network which works independantly of your home wireless network, hence no bandwidth constraints, which is why you can have up to 32 Sonos units all working AT THE SAME TIME on the same or different sources whilst not affecting the bandwidth capability of your home network. Try using even 2 AppleTV2s at the same time and see how much of your bandwidth is left.
Also, if you live in a large house, or one with thick walls, or you want to listen outside, because Sonos recreates its own Mesh network each time it hits a Sonos unit strength signal on the opposite side of the house to the router is still very high, each Zone Player acts like a new Sonos signal source.
Yup its expensive but I bought my first Sonos bit of kit in 2006. Since then ive added 3 more units, 2 of which were new redesigned units released a couple of years ago. Ive also added a second controller when they moved to touchscreen 2 years ago. And you know what? It all works seamlessly with each other. Old hardware, new hardware, built up over time. New features added over time (for free) seamlessly updated into even the oldest bit of hardware with a firmware update, they even added full Touch, iPhone and iPad control options so I could use any of them to control the audio around the house. Can you integrate AppleTV2 with 1? Can you honestly say in 5 years time your money spent will still work with the rest of your AppleTV system as they upgrade and add new features? When 3 year old sounddocks wont even charge new ipods I would hazard a guess...no.
-But then I would be forgetting you need a SOURCE of music. You tout the use of an NAS, but most NAS devices aren't exactly cheap or anything. For all intensive purposes they are a just a headless computer and most run Linux. AppleTV2 is out of the box a PITA if you don't want to leave a computer on, but you can put XBMC on it which will use any NAS or networked source. You then have the same functionality as Sonos BUT you also have full video capability. You could instead get a cheap Netbook for $250 (cheaper than most NAS devices) and connect a hard drive to that and run iTunes and the full Apple interface if you'd like and still have XBMC available as well. Personally, I just use an old PPC G4 PowerMac as a server and 24/7 Internet terminal. Intel machines can also be set to Wake On Lan, so you can have your machine sleep while AppleTV is not in use. In short, NAS isn't as great as you make it sound (most are also dog slow compared to a real computer) and there are alternative options even with Apple software like a cheap Netbook as a server.
NAS or WHS arent cheap but youve just contradicted yourself.
Sonos will also play from any networked PC, MAC, External hard drive on Airport, netbook. To use a NAS you dont have to install XBMC on it, it works out of the box from any source you want. That PPC G4 would also work with Sonos, or you could play Last.FM, or Pandora, or Spotify, or Napster, or unlimited internet radio (you can even add your own internet radio addresses).
Best of all, you DONT have to use iTunes. You can if you want, but you dont have to.
Sonos also gives you multi room grouping. Group 2 or more zones together and enjoy synced music wherever you want it. Not miliseconds out syncing like Sony or Logitech but 100% synced. Dropping zones can be done at the flick of the controller.
Read a review of a new album in the newspaper? Listen to it 5 seconds later on Sonos.
So the kids can listen to their own music streamed in their rooms upstairs, my wife can be listening to the TV, or some music in the living room, and I can be in my little den listening to my music whilst enjoying near full speed wireless capability on my pc or mac, or maybe my wife likes a song shes hearing upstairs and links zones so she can hear it downstairs.
You can buy a standalone unit which sounds better than the B&W Zeppelin, or get the amped unit for attaching to any speaker system you want, or get the small unit for use (as you do) with your existing stereo system. You can add these anytime you want, building up your Sonos system over time, without the fear it will be redundant over time.
Its a high end multi room music system vs a limited single streaming unit.
-Now I come to the heart of the matter...VIDEO. You suggest a Popcorn Hour in ADDITION to the already out of this world priced Sonos system. They start at $179 and go up to $299. That brings your total minimum price for a wireless system for a single room to $629 AND you have to switch between two separate devices to listen to audio and/or watch videos. With AppleTV you have all your movies, tv shows, photos, music, music videos, YouTube and Internet Radio (plus the options of XBMC with a quick hack including non-Apple formats) and your TOTAL COST for **one** room wireless using an existing wireless router is $99. $629 versus $99...Hmmmmmm. And then there's the matter of Popcorn Hour's crappy interface versus Apple's polished one. XBMC makes Popcorn Hour look bad as well. Bugs or popcorn? :confused:
Cost seems to be the big issue with you, so I wonder if you own a mac mini as opposed to 3 macbook pros, an imac, apple tv2 etc etc as many posters here have? If so, Sonos etc wont be for you. If you do own multiple Apple systems why are you so concerned with price? If you want the best you got to pay for it.
With Apple TV you DONT have all your movies or music or internet radio. you have limited experiences with all 3. No 1080p, no DVD images (Popcorn will load your dvd image in exactly the same way your dvd player would), wont play .mp4 .m4v .mkv .wmv .avi .aac .divx, doesnt have full support for all subtitle formats, wont play FLAC or anything else outside of your iTunes library audio wise and its internet radio function is gimped.
Its sure nice to have it in one box, but *it* is very very limited. Dedicated systems will always trump jack of all trade systems.
The interface is nice on AppleTV2 for sure, my popcorn looks better though with my skin on it. The default layout looks boring ill agree.
So for the price of your ONE room audio and video, I could have SIX rooms using AppleTV2 with both video and audio and still have $29 to spare
Except you couldnt do that could you? Your wireless network would be crippled with half that many running at the same time. I can assure you I can play a 1080P movie AND have 3 other Sonos units streaming at the same time. Try that sometime with 4 AppleTVs...
With XBMC installed, it can play any format (just like Popcorn Hour).
No, no it cant. DVD isos? All subtitle formats? 1080P? Also your slightly expanded feature set (not out of the box) is achieved by essentially hacking your AppleTV 2, so good luck on the next firmware update.
Hell, I can even buy a cheap 3.5" internal hard drive and slot that into my popcorn hour if I want to store the films locally, what sized hard drive does Apple TV2 have? Oh wait.
Your not seeing the advantages with zero configuration audio system, and a play all with no hassles video system? The only mucking about in my system is if you want a nice shinier interface with Popcorn Hour. You have to convert audio, replace (essentially) the OS to XBMC, have a linux system and a Crystal card to play 1080p on an OLDER Apple TV (your not factoring in this stuff with your price or integrated system arguments are you?) and you STILL have a far more limited setup.
Reading thru your post I guarantee you your costs are higher than $99 and in about 2 years time your system will be redundant.
Im not saying the AppleTV 2 is useless for everyone, for many of the dumb masses who are locked into iTunes already its probably the best thing since sliced bread, and really its only advantage is a cheap price and movie rentals, in glorious 720P, but if I want to feed my 42" 1080p plasma with subpar 720P video I could use the xbox or PS3 sitting under the TV, which I also dont bother with. For audiophiles or moviephiles it doesn't cut it.
diamond.g
May 3, 12:50 PM
DP 1.2 has up to 17.28 Gbps.
TB has two 10 Gbps channels.
Is TB able to have both channels send (or receive) at the same time? I am seeing that Wiki says it has 20GB/s of total BW, but that would imply that you can send data one way at 20GB/s which I didn't think was possible.
TB, according to what I understand about it, doesn't have the bandwith (single direction) to support DP 1.2.
TB has two 10 Gbps channels.
Is TB able to have both channels send (or receive) at the same time? I am seeing that Wiki says it has 20GB/s of total BW, but that would imply that you can send data one way at 20GB/s which I didn't think was possible.
TB, according to what I understand about it, doesn't have the bandwith (single direction) to support DP 1.2.
fatfish
Aug 23, 07:00 PM
There's more to this than anyone here as realised I believe.
A hundred with 6 zero's is an awful lot of cash, even for Apple, but what gets me is just how quickly this has been settled.
Before going down that road though, lets understand that fighting this case could have cost Apple between, let's say half as much and maybe 3 times as much, so it's a fair gamble. Additionally it seems that Apple have endorsed the creative patent, which may pave the way to creative receiving further license fees of which it seems Apple will receive a share.
The deal also lets creative move into the accessory market with made for ipod and out of the mp3 player market. I don't know if this is usual but I have an ipod which cost � 270, but I have around � 400 of made for ipod accessories. Perhaps creative will earn more from accessories than their zen. creative have struggled against the ipod, the zune may not have a significant impact on ipod sales but it would destroy the zen.
In many ways it is all the accessories for the ipod that make it so irresistible. creative may not only join the made for ipod market, but enhance it and ultimately benefit Apple. Also whilst not clear here whether the tag is free or not, I believe the made for ipod tag earns apple 10% of sales, which if not free is likely to recover all if not more than the $100 m paid to creative.
Now to the issue of how quickly Apple settled. I have to wonder why Apple could not have hung on for 6 months, offered creative half or 3/4 as much and had their hand snapped off because of creative's declining situation. Put simply I believe the deal had to be done quickly because Apple are about to announce something big, something that may have made the $ 100m look miniscule.
A hundred with 6 zero's is an awful lot of cash, even for Apple, but what gets me is just how quickly this has been settled.
Before going down that road though, lets understand that fighting this case could have cost Apple between, let's say half as much and maybe 3 times as much, so it's a fair gamble. Additionally it seems that Apple have endorsed the creative patent, which may pave the way to creative receiving further license fees of which it seems Apple will receive a share.
The deal also lets creative move into the accessory market with made for ipod and out of the mp3 player market. I don't know if this is usual but I have an ipod which cost � 270, but I have around � 400 of made for ipod accessories. Perhaps creative will earn more from accessories than their zen. creative have struggled against the ipod, the zune may not have a significant impact on ipod sales but it would destroy the zen.
In many ways it is all the accessories for the ipod that make it so irresistible. creative may not only join the made for ipod market, but enhance it and ultimately benefit Apple. Also whilst not clear here whether the tag is free or not, I believe the made for ipod tag earns apple 10% of sales, which if not free is likely to recover all if not more than the $100 m paid to creative.
Now to the issue of how quickly Apple settled. I have to wonder why Apple could not have hung on for 6 months, offered creative half or 3/4 as much and had their hand snapped off because of creative's declining situation. Put simply I believe the deal had to be done quickly because Apple are about to announce something big, something that may have made the $ 100m look miniscule.
vitaboy
Aug 24, 03:49 AM
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about just exactly what the settlement means. But I would like to remind people not to take things at face value - Apple is smarter than that.
I suspect that it was Apple who proposed the settlement to Creative. More than that, I suspect it was Apple who dictated the actual terms. Creative had no choice but to accept, which was just as well because at first appearance, they look like the winner.
However, I believe Apple is playing corporate jujitsu here. The settlement is a strategic move that greatly benefits Apple in the long term even as Apple is willing to suffer an apparent loss of face.
Why?
Because the settlement gives Creative much needed ammunition (in both cash and legal standing) to go after every one of the iPod's competitors. You can be sure Creative is getting ready to send out letters to Sandisk, which has raced past them in the music player space this year. You can be sure Creative will be sending letters to iRiver.
And most certainly, you can be certain that Creative will be sending letters to Microsoft with regards to Zune.
Really, Apple was not playing from a weak position. There's no other way to say it, but that's a simplistic and naive interpretation. Patent battles are very, very expensive, lasting years and thousands of man-months of time. Creative not only had to fight Apple over its original patents, but simultaneously defends itself against Apple's countersuit (which were filed in a different state, just to make life more difficult for Creative's legal team).
Without any effort at all, Apple could drag the case through the courts for 5+ years and force Creative to cough up tens of millions of dollars in legal expenses. Creative simply does not have that kind of money, after blowing through $100 million in cash to write of unsold inventory last year. The company's cash position is very weak and the company was undoubtedly sweating blood trying to determine if it would have enough cash to see things through the end - an end which was far from guaranteed. Even if Creative won its original patent suit, they would have lost the countersuit for the same reasons.
The prospect of blowing $50 million over 5 years to pay lawyers for a net gain of nothing was weighing heavily on their minds, I'm sure.
I think what really motivated the settlement is the sudden appearance of Zune. That basically gave Apple the ace it needed to give it a four-of-a-kind. Why? Because while Creative might have been able to tough it out before Zune, the existence of Zune would basically kill the company before the case could wind through the court system.
I mean, we saw Creative's share of the music player market dive from 8% to just 4% in about a year. Sandisk, which was a virtually unknown brand in the music player space, went from nothing to 8% in a short time.
Even if Zune is far from being an "iPod killer", with Microsoft's marketing machine backing it up, I think any reasonable person could see that it is quite likely that Creative's marketshare would be dropping to nothing a year from now.
So Apple basically gave Creative an offer it couldn't refuse.
Settle with us now and forget this silly patent threat of yours. We'll give you $100 million to license your patents, if only because you got them first. And now that we're all family, why don't you go after some of our competitors. You'll probably be able to get just as much, if not more, which is a lot better than what you were getting trying to fight us with that Zen thing.
And if you want to let your pride get in the way, I don't think we need to remind you that Zune is just a few months away from demolishing what little is left of your company. A year from now, it will be iPod, Sandisk, Zune....everyone will have forgotten about Creative because frankly, you don't have any loyal customers like we do.
In fact, we'll be nice and help you gain some loyal customers, too. By making great iPod accessories, you'll be truly a welcome part of the family and more importantly, you'll have products that people actually buy. How about that!
Just remember, the $100 million is a kind of loan, of sorts. When you talk to that Microsoft fella, remember to share some of the payments you extract with us. We're all family, right?
Given that the writing was on the wall, I figure Creative realized that if you can't beat 'em, it was far, far better to join Apple.
I suspect that it was Apple who proposed the settlement to Creative. More than that, I suspect it was Apple who dictated the actual terms. Creative had no choice but to accept, which was just as well because at first appearance, they look like the winner.
However, I believe Apple is playing corporate jujitsu here. The settlement is a strategic move that greatly benefits Apple in the long term even as Apple is willing to suffer an apparent loss of face.
Why?
Because the settlement gives Creative much needed ammunition (in both cash and legal standing) to go after every one of the iPod's competitors. You can be sure Creative is getting ready to send out letters to Sandisk, which has raced past them in the music player space this year. You can be sure Creative will be sending letters to iRiver.
And most certainly, you can be certain that Creative will be sending letters to Microsoft with regards to Zune.
Really, Apple was not playing from a weak position. There's no other way to say it, but that's a simplistic and naive interpretation. Patent battles are very, very expensive, lasting years and thousands of man-months of time. Creative not only had to fight Apple over its original patents, but simultaneously defends itself against Apple's countersuit (which were filed in a different state, just to make life more difficult for Creative's legal team).
Without any effort at all, Apple could drag the case through the courts for 5+ years and force Creative to cough up tens of millions of dollars in legal expenses. Creative simply does not have that kind of money, after blowing through $100 million in cash to write of unsold inventory last year. The company's cash position is very weak and the company was undoubtedly sweating blood trying to determine if it would have enough cash to see things through the end - an end which was far from guaranteed. Even if Creative won its original patent suit, they would have lost the countersuit for the same reasons.
The prospect of blowing $50 million over 5 years to pay lawyers for a net gain of nothing was weighing heavily on their minds, I'm sure.
I think what really motivated the settlement is the sudden appearance of Zune. That basically gave Apple the ace it needed to give it a four-of-a-kind. Why? Because while Creative might have been able to tough it out before Zune, the existence of Zune would basically kill the company before the case could wind through the court system.
I mean, we saw Creative's share of the music player market dive from 8% to just 4% in about a year. Sandisk, which was a virtually unknown brand in the music player space, went from nothing to 8% in a short time.
Even if Zune is far from being an "iPod killer", with Microsoft's marketing machine backing it up, I think any reasonable person could see that it is quite likely that Creative's marketshare would be dropping to nothing a year from now.
So Apple basically gave Creative an offer it couldn't refuse.
Settle with us now and forget this silly patent threat of yours. We'll give you $100 million to license your patents, if only because you got them first. And now that we're all family, why don't you go after some of our competitors. You'll probably be able to get just as much, if not more, which is a lot better than what you were getting trying to fight us with that Zen thing.
And if you want to let your pride get in the way, I don't think we need to remind you that Zune is just a few months away from demolishing what little is left of your company. A year from now, it will be iPod, Sandisk, Zune....everyone will have forgotten about Creative because frankly, you don't have any loyal customers like we do.
In fact, we'll be nice and help you gain some loyal customers, too. By making great iPod accessories, you'll be truly a welcome part of the family and more importantly, you'll have products that people actually buy. How about that!
Just remember, the $100 million is a kind of loan, of sorts. When you talk to that Microsoft fella, remember to share some of the payments you extract with us. We're all family, right?
Given that the writing was on the wall, I figure Creative realized that if you can't beat 'em, it was far, far better to join Apple.
IJ Reilly
Sep 5, 01:54 PM
Yerba Buena's going to be a busy place on Tuesday...the American Chemical Society is having a meeting at the Moscone Center next week with over 12,000 people in attendance. I'll have a friend in town for the meeting, so maybe I'll snoop around YPCFA and see what's up. Maybe the walls are thin enough that I can just put my ear up to them...
Careful, Steve has them run 12,000 kv through those walls for Apple events.
AAPL is making a nice advance on this news, up about $2 this afternoon. Looks like the markets have been waiting for Apple to get into this business.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=AAPL
Careful, Steve has them run 12,000 kv through those walls for Apple events.
AAPL is making a nice advance on this news, up about $2 this afternoon. Looks like the markets have been waiting for Apple to get into this business.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=AAPL
poochi999
Apr 22, 12:50 PM
what are you going to do with your downloaded song? if you still use cd's, you're an old timer when it comes to technology. My wife and i both listen to pandora/itunes music in the car and hooked up wirelessly throughout the house. Boom, all the music in the cloud service could be right there right now. Instead of having to go to my computer, sync what music i want so i can load up my phone with music i want for my trip.
Times are changing. Once this cloud service is the standard, you won't have to have multiple hard drives with your data or music/photos. Go look at dropbox and how popular that is. There is no need for users to have mass amaount of storage when you can access it in the cloud.
absolutely
Times are changing. Once this cloud service is the standard, you won't have to have multiple hard drives with your data or music/photos. Go look at dropbox and how popular that is. There is no need for users to have mass amaount of storage when you can access it in the cloud.
absolutely
Silentwave
Jul 15, 10:12 AM
Have anybody seen a benchmark which compares the core 2 duo with the actuall core duo?
I can only see benchmarks between core 2 duo and AMD CPU's and standard dual core Pentium 4 cpu.
Thanks
Masoud
Core 2 duo out so far is a desktop chip being compared against other dektop chips. The Core Duo only came as a notebook chip (with one version as a very low power server chip, Sossaman)
I can only see benchmarks between core 2 duo and AMD CPU's and standard dual core Pentium 4 cpu.
Thanks
Masoud
Core 2 duo out so far is a desktop chip being compared against other dektop chips. The Core Duo only came as a notebook chip (with one version as a very low power server chip, Sossaman)
jsoto
Apr 28, 03:24 PM
Congrats!:D
AppliedVisual
Oct 27, 12:19 PM
Somebody please explain to me what GW Bush has to do with a Greenpeace story out of the London Mac Expo?
...Uh, Internet law 2001-B... because he's the international scapegoat of this decade. He must be blamed for all unfortunate and tragic events, no matter when, where, how or why they occured. Including and not limited to natural disasters, "acts of God", actions by foreign powers and anything else that blame could possibly (no matter how illogically) be assigned to. Because, dammit, if there were anyone else sitting in that oval office, the world would have progressed into a virtual utopia by now. :rolleyes:
My predictions for the next presidency: A variation of the same old ****, completely different guy.
...Uh, Internet law 2001-B... because he's the international scapegoat of this decade. He must be blamed for all unfortunate and tragic events, no matter when, where, how or why they occured. Including and not limited to natural disasters, "acts of God", actions by foreign powers and anything else that blame could possibly (no matter how illogically) be assigned to. Because, dammit, if there were anyone else sitting in that oval office, the world would have progressed into a virtual utopia by now. :rolleyes:
My predictions for the next presidency: A variation of the same old ****, completely different guy.
portishead
Mar 23, 04:46 PM
All DUI Checkpoints should be announced anyway beforehand. Apple will just throw these letters away.
dsnort
Oct 27, 03:38 PM
My cousin's iBook died last winter. I discovered he disposed of it, not sure if he did environmentally-well or not. But since he should've given it to me, even though dead, I had to shoot him. That's one that won't hose the environment anymore!
(this post is partly hyperbole.....no Apple is ever "dead")
I seriously hope you disposed of the body in an ecologically sound manner! :D
(this post is partly hyperbole.....no Apple is ever "dead")
I seriously hope you disposed of the body in an ecologically sound manner! :D
RonHC
Apr 30, 03:28 PM
I have a newbie question.
I plan on moving onto MAC OS (from Windows 7) but I wanted to wait for Lion, but I'm also quite impatient since the iMac is perfect for me.
Being new to Apple computers, would I be able to use Lion (like an upgrade) when it comes out?
I plan on moving onto MAC OS (from Windows 7) but I wanted to wait for Lion, but I'm also quite impatient since the iMac is perfect for me.
Being new to Apple computers, would I be able to use Lion (like an upgrade) when it comes out?
Chimera
Sep 5, 01:46 PM
My nano is already on eBay awaiting a nice metal clad 8GB version, I hope they do an andonised black one though to match my other gadgets.
whatever
Aug 23, 10:34 PM
Not really. Creative was going broke. This was the best possible outcome for them.
To Apple it could have made all the sense of a business deal.
Imagine the lawyers:
"Ride it out and you may win or you may lose and it'll cost you $200-250 million.
Pay up now, get Creative on board, don't appear to be the bad guy and close any issues with patents - now and in the future - for $100 million."
Actually there are two other reasons why Apple settled.
What if Creative was bought by Microsoft, then without a settlement they could have continued the suit.
Now that Creative has money they can sue others (Microsoft) who also planning on infridging on their patents.
To Apple it could have made all the sense of a business deal.
Imagine the lawyers:
"Ride it out and you may win or you may lose and it'll cost you $200-250 million.
Pay up now, get Creative on board, don't appear to be the bad guy and close any issues with patents - now and in the future - for $100 million."
Actually there are two other reasons why Apple settled.
What if Creative was bought by Microsoft, then without a settlement they could have continued the suit.
Now that Creative has money they can sue others (Microsoft) who also planning on infridging on their patents.
milo
Aug 28, 01:42 PM
Apple isn't trying to remain competitive with anyone. :rolleyes:
Never have, never will.
They march to the beat of their own drum.
They're competitive with the Mac Pro. Very competitive.
I'd like to see apple release merom and conroe machines ASAP, but I'm not going to rake them over the coals for lagging the announcements from PC makers by a few days (probably in the next two or three tuesdays).
Are all the pc merom laptops shipping immediately?
I think that Apple shouldn't enter that race.. their products are distinguished by other features than mere processing power (as soon as this changes: goodbye Apple), and coming out with new models every few months will probably just piss off Apple customers (so far, it's pretty easy to know ALL current laptop models that Apple offers - can you say that for Dell, too?).
Updating wouldn't mean new models, just bumps to what they're shipping now. And that's a GOOD thing, apple customers should be happy about having the latest and greatest available, not pissed off. Apple needs to consistently keep up with the latest cpus.
Never have, never will.
They march to the beat of their own drum.
They're competitive with the Mac Pro. Very competitive.
I'd like to see apple release merom and conroe machines ASAP, but I'm not going to rake them over the coals for lagging the announcements from PC makers by a few days (probably in the next two or three tuesdays).
Are all the pc merom laptops shipping immediately?
I think that Apple shouldn't enter that race.. their products are distinguished by other features than mere processing power (as soon as this changes: goodbye Apple), and coming out with new models every few months will probably just piss off Apple customers (so far, it's pretty easy to know ALL current laptop models that Apple offers - can you say that for Dell, too?).
Updating wouldn't mean new models, just bumps to what they're shipping now. And that's a GOOD thing, apple customers should be happy about having the latest and greatest available, not pissed off. Apple needs to consistently keep up with the latest cpus.
4God
Aug 28, 12:12 PM
I think I'll just purchase a Core 2 Duo myself and drop it in my iMac.
Conroe, right?
Conroe, right?
turbobass
Mar 22, 08:45 PM
I just want to say a big "AMERICA, **** YEAH!" about this ...
But also I wanted to say we should be rewarding WIRELESS protocols. ThunderBolt = Fast, great. Polite golf clap. No AMERICA **** YEAH for ThunderBolt. Everything should be WIRELESS now. 2011 baby!:mad:
But also I wanted to say we should be rewarding WIRELESS protocols. ThunderBolt = Fast, great. Polite golf clap. No AMERICA **** YEAH for ThunderBolt. Everything should be WIRELESS now. 2011 baby!:mad:
martygras9
Mar 23, 04:16 PM
I actually agree. Pull 'em. It may be censorship, but it's dangerous not to.
fishcove
May 3, 10:20 AM
So is it safe to assume that with 2 external monitors one can have a 3-monitor eyefinity-like extended desktop?
And would the same setup work in bootcamp (ie using eyefinity)?
BTW, Canadian prices are the same as US! Never thought I'd see the day.
And would the same setup work in bootcamp (ie using eyefinity)?
BTW, Canadian prices are the same as US! Never thought I'd see the day.
fall3n
Aug 28, 05:21 PM
What about the Robson flash technology. That sounds like the greatest thing since a laptop with a palmrest on the bottom and an "upside down" logo.
of course that would be useful and by all means wait another year if you must, but personally i'd rather just buy now and then upgrade later as if it's really that amazing then the sockets are still compatable and an easy upgrade.
of course that would be useful and by all means wait another year if you must, but personally i'd rather just buy now and then upgrade later as if it's really that amazing then the sockets are still compatable and an easy upgrade.
digitalbiker
Sep 13, 10:21 PM
It's all good. ;) :)
So does anyone think Apple would go retro and offer a "digital rotary dial" option using the clickwheel for dialing digits? I think it would be kind of cool, but then again, I love the old rotary phones. :D
After further thought, I suppose it might be a novelty that wears off fast... :o ;)
I'm thinking more along the lines of a really thin flip phone. The ipod functionality would be on the outside of the flip (ie click wheel) and the keypad would be on the inside of the flip. Close the flip and the exposed LCD shows a normal ipod screen. Open the flp and the screen shows the phone interface.
So does anyone think Apple would go retro and offer a "digital rotary dial" option using the clickwheel for dialing digits? I think it would be kind of cool, but then again, I love the old rotary phones. :D
After further thought, I suppose it might be a novelty that wears off fast... :o ;)
I'm thinking more along the lines of a really thin flip phone. The ipod functionality would be on the outside of the flip (ie click wheel) and the keypad would be on the inside of the flip. Close the flip and the exposed LCD shows a normal ipod screen. Open the flp and the screen shows the phone interface.